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TOPIC: Sea Hornet help!

Re: Sea Hornet help! 5 years 1 day ago #29811

Lost my reply again!

Rich, its great! Done a good few flights now and take-offs at 80 InMg and 3000, can do on a bit less, climbs a a good 4000 pm as per book , scalars right, no power loss. Flying like the real thing I guess, at last.

only one minor problem. I do run with full realism and was getting tremendous left yaw at take-off as soon as TO boost. Did a crash course in torque, P-Factor on yaw and roll, THEN noticed yaw stopped after plane levelled (by which time I was well off runway even with foot jammed on right rudder) So P-factor not Torque. Checked by dropping realsim sliders one by one So its P-factor realism to left in realism, or p_factor_on_yaw = 0.
I chose the latter as I didn't think P-factor affects Hornet with props rotating opposite directions (or cancels out). That fixed it. You're right FSX isn't right - checked Mosquito and Beau as well. All still yaw but not bad, bit like light crosswind.

Apart from that only thought was adding emergency boost. I thought I read somehwere on Hornet as 27psi for 5 minutes. Could possibly add, and put detonation back in? - although don't know if Merlin 130/131s had any detonation limitation.

But I'm enjoying this properly now. Time for a U-Boat patrol.

Guess Ill change the 21 and F3 as well.

Cheers, Mike
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Re: Sea Hornet help! 5 years 1 day ago #29817

  • Miggers
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Don't forget that whilst the "handed"propllers cancelled out any prop torque on t/o or
opening up to overshoot a baulked landing,you'd still get some gyroscopic effect from
the engine crank rotation.

The Merlin 131 had an extra idler gear to allow the prop to rotate in the opposite
direction(left instead of right),but the crankshafts and one prop all still rotated in the
same direction,hence there's still some yaw or swing,but not as pronounced.

Wind on some right rudder trim Mike,that'll help quite a bit.

Now who said about being bounced on take off?


Yellow-nosed barstud in the sun coming down now!!!!

Behind you,behind you!!!

Takka-takka-takka-takka :P
CBF Alpha/Beta Test Pilot

CBF Chief Fighter Pilot

IL2 Messerschmitt 109 ace

Holder of the Knight's Cross with Oak Leaves,Swords and Diamonds.
Last Edit: 5 years 1 day ago by Miggers.
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Re: Sea Hornet help! 5 years 1 day ago #29842

  • Rich
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Mike, glad it works for you, in the little readme included I said FSX makes a right pigs ear of prop aircraft prop settings in MAX Realisim, the Wyvern and Gannet have a wild left hand down on take off I will not use it.

The way some modelers stop it is to dissable the airfile settings via the aircraft.cfg and some Ms included set p_factor_on_yaw to 0 or very low in the airfile.

You can use that airfile in all 3 models, except for a few mph difference between the fastest and slowest the were much the same. I have slight differences in the aircraft.cfg to get the fuel burn somewhere near right to get the range for the different tankage.

The anti detonation thing, I have found no reference to it and suspect the P51 racer has it for racing power so I would leave it out, while on that subject I suspect as this section is missing from the aircraft.cfg is the reason for exploding engines, you would need 2 entries I think for engine 0 and 1 located somewhere near the engines, as you can see it will not last long with that flow rate.

[AntiDetonation System.0]
reservoir_size = 40 ; gallons
flow_rate = 3.8 ; gallons per minute
reservoir_position = -1.8, 4.1, -1.8 ; long (+ is fore), lat (+ is right), vert
max_mp_compensate = 135 ; MP above which ADI cannot compensate for

Max Boost in the book is + 20 for 5 min.

Max Bygraves would do a better job than Max Realism
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Re: Sea Hornet help! 5 years 1 day ago #29843

Don't you go to bed either? Too tired to think and reply - I'll edit this tomorrow . . .G'night, Mike
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Re: Sea Hornet help! 5 years 1 day ago #29844

  • Rich
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I am in the Philippines only 1030 am here.
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Re: Sea Hornet help! 5 years 19 hours ago #29855

  • Rich
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Sorry I missed MAX BOYCE he would be more realistic too
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Re: Sea Hornet help! 5 years 18 hours ago #29860

  • Miggers
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The most boost I've ever heard of (Service -wise rather than civvy use)in a Rolls V12 was
in the sole Spiteful F.16,RB518.

That had a three speed Griffon 101 fitted and achieved 494mph in level flight
using +25 boost and no thought for the engine's welfare.

So give your Merlins silly boost at your peril gents.
Personally,I'd remove as much as possible"racer reference"from the air file.
It seems this anti-detonation and high boost are giving a lot of problems.
Reading Rich's post,it looks like that engine was fitted with a type of methanol/water
injection system(fitted to P&W radials as a matter of course)to help the engine
handle high boost and not go pop.

Yon Hornet(AFAIK)wasn't fitted with such in Service.

I would have thought Max Headroom would be more in keeping(think about it)
Mark
CBF Alpha/Beta Test Pilot

CBF Chief Fighter Pilot

IL2 Messerschmitt 109 ace

Holder of the Knight's Cross with Oak Leaves,Swords and Diamonds.
Last Edit: 5 years 18 hours ago by Miggers.
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Re: Sea Hornet help! 5 years 12 hours ago #29873

Well to chuck something more into the pot . .

Page 43 pilot's guide unequivocaly states mp as 20 psi for max 5 minutes for operational neccessity as Rich says, i.e. c. 40 inMg. 12 psi for TO initial climb max 1 hour and 9psi normal. Max mp psi according to wikipedia, various and Hornet enthusiast site gives max 24.7 or 25 as Rob has it. The 130/131 was after all just about the highest rated in service Merlin used. Elsewhere the PG suggests using max boost available when needed which suggests some self-limiting. I have a cousin who was around as RAF mechanic/instruments at the time so will ask him.

Either way Mark, what we are suggesting is hardly silly boost. You really have to try flying the thing to see what I mean, we aren't talking about screaming engines or hanging on the propellor - just the design parameters and specs..

Do agree about take out the racing stuff from the P51d like detonation, if it wasn't there. Can't find any reference to anti-detonation myself eiherexcept for for racing conversions, both aircraft and cars. The supercharger was designed to be "detonation-free" whatever that means! Water /methanol wasn't used till the racing conversions. The detonation level was in Rob's NF21 which again was taken from the Acceleration P51 I believe

Lastly the .cfg - according to the DSX developer kit/wiki - max mp etc. should be in inMG. Clearly the boost gauges iaren't calibrated in psi. I'd thought it was in inMg. Anyway . . .

. . . f you treat themas calibrated in mmHg x10 . . it fits everything - right down to needle reading on the boost gauges, converted to PSI, and the Pilot's guide values. Quite honestly I think it flies as realistcally as the Mosquito exactly what you'd expect considering greater weight etc.

So mine's powered as the design and pilots guide specs, flies like it should , climbs like it should with no excess or spare. I'm not changing anything!

Cheers, Mike
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Re: Sea Hornet help! 5 years 12 hours ago #29875

  • LeifH
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All that makes sense Mike

I think Rob was trying to find a Merlin that would fit the P/W ratio and in using a racing Merlin put something in that wasnt
there in the original - Having flown the Hornet (in all three versions) from the begining per the PN's I havnt had a problem with it at all........including the mysterious "Hovering" that someone on another Forum described.

Now Im off to continue to test Keith Paines latest offering -- along with my rubber duck and wellies.


Leif
<<In the early morning rain, with a dollar in my hand>>
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Re: Sea Hornet help! 5 years 12 hours ago #29877

  • Miggers
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I think you're about right Mike,I trust you're using Rich's tweaked files,+25 is
an absolute short time safe maximum.

The comment about silly boost was for anyone who isn't using Rich's file
(there'll be someone,trust me).

I've never heard of a Service Merlin or Griffon fitted with any kind of anti-detonation device,I'd
say the wartime equivalent of such would be 150 octane petrol.
Mid war German fighters though were nearly always fitted with methanol/water injection(hence they're very smokey,MW50 makes black smoke)to cool the air going through the blower
and reduce the possibility of detonation at high boost.
The DB603/605 series and BMW 801 series certainly had it fitted.

I think that between Rich and yourself,you've cracked it.

Mark
CBF Alpha/Beta Test Pilot

CBF Chief Fighter Pilot

IL2 Messerschmitt 109 ace

Holder of the Knight's Cross with Oak Leaves,Swords and Diamonds.
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Re: Sea Hornet help! 5 years 10 hours ago #29882

  • Keith Paine
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I hope that its been cracked to everyones satisfaction, I have found some a/c engines very difficult to set up without employing scaling factors in the a/c.cfg.
I usually have to experiment not only with the 'friction torque' files in the .air file but also with the propellor factors & fuel flow.
Setting a jet engine can be even worse - especially at high altitude ( my Jindivik/Viper was one). The end result really is that the MS software is a series of 'fudge' graphs & tables, with many things not related to theory, which makes things very difficult to define from the outset. Then when you try to put things into FSX that then throws up differences again - not just on the engine side, aerodynamics also.
It keeps one busy experimenting......
Keith
Upside Down In Cloud.....
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Re: Sea Hornet help! 5 years 8 hours ago #29885

Mark, yes I'm using Rich's .cfg and .air files. If anyone wants them you'll have to ask him? I'm not good enough to understand the friction etc. Prop and power scalars are both 1.0 with 2030 max hp I was able to get off the ground with the originals, though very carefully on the NF21 and the detonation - which was set at 40 inHg. Given what I think the calibration is on the gauge everything else worked though any 109 or 262 coming out of the sun would have jumped me for sure, emergency boost would have blown the engine. See what you say Leif, but I'm now flying OK with 3000rpm and max 12 psi takeoff, detonation where used at at around 55 inMg but think I'm going to take out anway and just watch the gauges . . .

Think this from my point of view can go to bed now . . time for a percivak float help?

Mike
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Re: Sea Hornet help! 5 years 1 hour ago #29892

  • Rich
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Hopefully if I have done it right the 3 Hornet alternative FD's should be available here for the time being, please use both aircraft.cfg and airfile together do'nt try to mix and match with Robs FD's.

They will climb at 4000 FPM and fuel burn is near right

For those that use Max realism read the notes on how to set it up as far as I am concerned it is junk on prop aircraft

Leif if you think they are ok you are welcome to throw them in the pond

If you do'nt like it you will get a full refund

Thanks go to Rob for the very nice models

Now available in the library so link to outside removed
Last Edit: 4 years 11 months ago by Rich. Reason: Remove redundant link
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Re: Sea Hornet help! 4 years 11 months ago #29914

link says you've removed file . . . :-( mike
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Re: Sea Hornet help! 4 years 11 months ago #29919

  • Rich
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Mike I was in the middle of getting the correct zip up when the hacking occurred try now with this link

Now available in the library so link removed
Last Edit: 4 years 11 months ago by Rich. Reason: Removed redundant link
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